VIDEO GAME INPUT (what is important to me)

[delpheus]

You guys at Whitemoon Dreams have said that we should speak up and provide input, so here is my contribution. This will be a long post so please bear with me. My post is so long it will actually take two posts to complete...I hope you will take the time to read my post. I know you must be overwhelmed with conflicting fanatical opinions, so I’m not saying ‘this is the way it must be made!’ but rather I merely hope something in this post may be inspirational and constructive in some way.

I will begin by saying that you guys certainly have the right idea. I love the direction you guys are taking the Warmachine video game and I am excited to see the finished product. However, I hope you guys truthful intend to do the game justice. I have watched too many potentially great games transformed into abominations.

An example of what I’m talking about is ‘WAR Online’. I was once a passionate games-workshop loyalist and followed the development of the MMO since the day one announcement (just as I was there for the WM video game announcement). My hopes soared and each new pod cast confirmed my dreams were coming true. Every word the creative director spoke was solid gold!

But then, EA buys out Mythic. Suddenly WAR Online took a radical turn toward mainstream and became a mirror image of World of Warcraft. I was heartbroken. Then Bioware announces a ‘Knights of the Old Republic’ MMO. My hopes rekindle, only to be shattered once again. EA buys out Bioware. The next thing, I know I’m watching a clip of Master Chief in clone trooper armor tossing a sticky grenade…I was devastated.

So, my point is, nothing would crush my soul more than watching the same thing happen to Warmachine—my absolute favorite thing in the world! The game means a lot to me so I figure I should let my voice be heard. Even if it is ignored, at least I had a chance to speak during development.

As mentioned in the IA interview, table top games have been adapted to video games before, like ‘Dawn of War’. One thing that is very important to me is remaining true to the original. ‘Revisions’ that fail to remain true are unacceptable. For example, I played Eldar in 40k, but the Eldar in Dawn of War were completely different! Shuriken catapults were rubbish, iconic units were omitted, and the play style wasn’t like Eldar at all.

It’s the same as if you were to take a faction in Warmachine and put your own spin on them or make changes you think would make them more balanced. Like, say you think Khador armor is too resilient or Cygnar guns are too strong, so you make adjustments…then you’re not going to be playing the same faction anymore. No one wants to see their favorite unit, ability, weapon, or whatever omitted or ruined. I can’t stress this point enough, because Dawn of War really frustrated me in that regard.

If I’m playing Khador, I expect the same armor and melee power they have in the table top. If I’m playing Sorscha, I expect her to be extremely fast with a knockdown AOE and freezing spell. That’s just how I feel it should be.

(But don't get me wrong! Revisions are fine if done correctly, like an appropriate addition. One prospect that comes to mind is, in a battlegroup style game with heavy emphasis on casters and Warjacks, it would be nice to see some new battlegroup spells. Minor additions are usually cool.)

Staying true also applies to things like Warjacks—the icons of Warmachine. My main concern with them in a video game environment is, I want to see them function realistically. I must say that when I walked into the announcement room I was very disappointed to see the Warjack was breathing…I seriously hope that was done just to play around with animation…otherwise the realism is lost. I want Warjacks to look and feel like the ten ton machines they are. They can jitter and rumble and shake around due to all the moving parts, but they certainly shouldn't be breathing.

Something I’ve always loved about Warmachine is the mecha doesn’t look or feel humanoid--they're more like a train with legs. The jack’s are (for the most part) more about momentum and weight rather than precision. I imagine Warjack movements being very sluggish, lumbering, and cumbersome. Seeing the Warjack breathing immediately worried me that the jacks are going to be humanoid, agile, and accurate. That just wouldn’t be right at all.

Which brings me to another point—I really hope the game has a compelling cinematic feel. I prefer minimal interface with NO interference or interruptions. I’ll explain what I mean by that. In games like WOW, when you hit an enemy, numbers appear on the screen informing you how much damage was dealt. Or when you cast a spell an icon appears over the target’s head representing that spell. Stuff like that is annoying and makes a cinematic experience impossible. I hope you guys approach this project with a cinematic vision rather than treating this like another mundane video game.

Which brings me to another VERY IMPORTANT point…

This is bold because this might be the most important thing I say in the entire post. Please, for the love of god, don’t integrate any ‘rapidly press X to free yourself from danger!’ or ‘tap Y to save the world’ mechanics……It is intolerable and isn’t fun! Game companies claim they have the most "cinematic" and "graphically impressive" game, but when a giant ‘x button’ icon appears on the screen, prompting you to press that button, it DESTROYS the game and kills any attempt at cinema. Please, no more of that…no more ‘family fun tap the button!’ instances.

[delpheus]

So far I’ve expressed my views mainly from a video gamer standpoint. But now let’s talk about the game from a Warmachine fan standpoint.

The premise—a 3rd person Warcaster / battlegroup action game based on STORY—is exactly the right idea. I appreciate good graphics just as much as anyone else (and I must mention that I ADORE the Sorscha model you guys made. ITS PERFECT!! She is sexy as hell! Keep the models looking just as good! But anyway…), and I’m concerned about proper game play mechanics, and so on and so forth, but what matters most to me is story.

I don’t think I need to go into any details here because I have complete faith in you guys to do the story right, since it seemed to be your primary concern as well. However, it does take more than story to make a game compelling, engaging, and fun…

For example, let’s look at World of Warcraft. The story is incredible. The character depth is deep. The artwork is spectacular. The ‘Wrath of the Lich King’ opening cinematic is one of the most beautifully told stories in gaming history. Warcraft is a realm you can completely immerse yourself in. However, I hate the game with a passion because the gameplay utterly sucks, the mechanics are nonsensical, and the whole experience is just awful. I’m afraid the same thing could happen with this game.

Something I try to explain (but I am often misunderstood) is that a game should feel real. Mechanics should be logical. And the experience should full of real danger and excitement. In most games, since people have the misconception that heroes are invincible, developers build mechanics to reflect this falsity. Say, for instance, a ‘level one’ attacks a ‘level eighty’. The game will have a mechanic to dictate that the level one automatically misses or inflicts zero damage. This is wrong. There should always be a chance to hit and there should always be a chance to inflict damage in almost every circumstance. Basically what I’m saying is, just because you’re playing a Warcaster doesn’t mean that ‘lower levels’ or 'minor damage' can’t hurt you. As far as games go, Warmachine retains the most realism, which I hope is take into account for the video game.

For example, some might say “a POW 12 weapon can’t hurt a jack at all” when in reality YES, IT CAN. In my experience playing the table top, the ability to kill anything with almost anything is extremely satisfying and fun for me. There is no “haha, that hand cannon can’t penetrate my armor!” but rather “If I boost, I can!”

Every soldier matters. Every attack is a potential kill.

Like, just recently I’ve had some games where my 'puny' POW 12s were crucial to victory.

Here are some examples:

-Vladamir casting razor wind at a full health Mortenebra (behind cover). Two boosted hit and boosted damage razor wind attacks killed her! (One of the many reason I love Warmachine.)

-Sorscha taking a pot shot at a wounded Warbeast. Her hand cannon inflicted exactly the right amount of damage to finish it off.

And there have been several other instances where I’ve seen utility units charge in a last ditch effort to stall or inflict damage on the enemy. A Reclaimer charging Bane Lord Tartarus might seem stupid at first, but when a focus battery kills your beatstick you realize just how hardcore and awesome Warmachine really is! That is the element of gameplay the makes Warmachine so much fun for me.

You can also turn the tables around and look at it this way. Sometimes you slip up, you fumble, you fail miserably. That’s what snake eyes on the dice represents. Everyone who play’s Warmachine has experienced that moment where you charge an enemy expecting to demolish the target, only to end up rolling terribly and failing. There should always be a chance to fail in everything you do, no matter how good or how powerful you are. That is realism. It’s just lame to see an archer charging across the battlefield accurately shooting at targets a mile away. We may be playing a Warcaster, but that doesn’t mean everything should be easy and precise.

Moving on, I have been interested in game development for several years now. I have designed several of my own game projects, so I like to think I know what I’m talking about when I bring up mechanics and overall gameplay. A Warmachine video game is actually something I’ve been thinking about since I started playing the table top. Of course I could never become involved in anything like that, but it’s something that was fun to fantasize about.

One core concept I wanted to see was an accurate focus system. They way I imagined it is that it would function exactly like the table top version. At the bottom of the screen you’d have however much focus your chosen caster has (represented by a number glowing circles or something like that) and focus points would be spent according to the spell cost just like we’re all accustomed to. Focus would regenerate by one point every four or five seconds, and each upkeep spell maintained would increase focus regeneration time by one second. Allocation would be similar in effect to upkeeps, like, you could feed a jack focus and it would perform better at the cost of focus regeneration speed.

I heard you guys want to have a ‘jump to jack’ feature for power attacks and such, which is a cool way to represent allocation, but…what about the Warcaster? What is he/she doing when you take over a jack? I would like to remain in the caster’s POV, but that’s just my personal preference. I just can’t imagine such a mechanic being pulled off, but hey, if that’s what you guys want then go for it. I just hope that jacks can perform well on their own without direct player control. In a competitive online experience, leaving your caster POV could cost the game.

Another gameplay mechanic I believe should be integral to all games is wounds and fatigue. I like to believe the character I’m playing is real (if you haven’t already picked up on that…) so I expect that after swinging Frostfang around for a while, Sorscha is going to start feeling exhausted. I expect that after taking multiple hits from guns and swords, she’s going to start limping and holding her profusely bleeding wounds. I’d also expect Warjacks to suffer from damage as well, just like on the tabletop. I want to see jacks get beat up and torn apart and suffer from the same disabled system mechanics, with possibly even more things that can go wrong…like a ruptured steam component that causes dramatic decrease in pressure and functionality—stuff like that would just be so cool.

Something that just came up while talking with a friend of mine is Warcaster feats. I’m sure everyone assumes that feats are going to be incorporated somehow but how do you manage that ability? Is it a one time thing like in the table top or is it going to be a more readily accessible ability? Personally, I would rather have feats toned down but more readily accessible, maybe some of them being passive.

I’m sure there’s more I want to say, but at the moment I’m drawing a blank. I’ll post more as it comes to mind. For now, I’ll leave this here and hopefully you may consider some of my points. Having a game developer read my input is enough to satisfy me even if everything is ignored. I'm just glad I had a chance to share some thoughts.

Thank you for taking the time to listen to a passionate gamer and fellow Warmachine fan. Keep up the good work, Whitemoon Dreams dev team!

-Chris Howard, AKA Delpheus-

P.S.

I F’ING LOVE THE SORSCHA MODEL YOU GUYS MADE!!

[Skyydragonn]

just a couple of points for you to consider.

First, if you've been watching the wideo's for SW:ToR, it looks to be an excellent redition of what 99.98% of star wars games have lacked over the years 'immersion' I highly doubt it will be anything like halo in storm trooper armor. Bioware to date has never released a game that was anything less than excellent, Even coupled with EA I highly doubt that Sw:ToR will be anything but top of the line in terms of quality and true to the franchises iconic feel.

Secondly, the "breathing" warjack fits the IK/warmachine lore fairly well when you consider how a warcaster interacts with the warjack cortex. Overtime certain aspects of the warcasters personality become "imprinted" on the cortex, seeing as how most warcasters/jack marshals and other's capable of controlling 'jacks breath, it makes sense that this one commonality becomes imprinted on the 'jacks, with the excpetion (possibly) of cryx warcasters.
Aethetically, it helps convey a sense of readiness and agility. Having a warjack that stands motionless until told to move would be overly static and dull, and removes some sense of just how much power is waiting to be directed to action.

[delpheus]

just a couple of points for you to consider.

First, if you've been watching the wideo's for SW:ToR, it looks to be an excellent redition of what 99.98% of star wars games have lacked over the years 'immersion' I highly doubt it will be anything like halo in storm trooper armor. Bioware to date has never released a game that was anything less than excellent, Even coupled with EA I highly doubt that Sw:ToR will be anything but top of the line in terms of quality and true to the franchises iconic feel.

Like I said, the game may have excellent story and immersion, but that means nothing without a good game to back it up. You say you highly doubt it will be like halo in storm trooper armor, but watch the videos man, i'm not making this up! The republic soldier is Master Chief! I felt the subject was worth mentioning because very few people realize this or acknowledge this as a problem. It does destroy the franchises iconic feel. It is a very real concern that any video game could degenerate into world of warcraft or halo. it has happened more time than I care to count...and it is always sad.

Secondly, the "breathing" warjack fits the IK/warmachine lore fairly well when you consider how a warcaster interacts with the warjack cortex. Overtime certain aspects of the warcasters personality become "imprinted" on the cortex, seeing as how most warcasters/jack marshals and other's capable of controlling 'jacks breath, it makes sense that this one commonality becomes imprinted on the 'jacks, with the excpetion (possibly) of cryx warcasters.
Aethetically, it helps convey a sense of readiness and agility. Having a warjack that stands motionless until told to move would be overly static and dull, and removes some sense of just how much power is waiting to be directed to action.

I've heard the imprint argument before, but I completely disagree with it. Warjack 'imprints' are derived from the Warcaster's personality--not their bodily functions. Warjacks imitating breath just looks wrong. They shouldn't be anything like a living creature. They are Warmachines. 'conveying a sense of readiness and agility' is exactly what I don't like--they shouldn't be ready or agile. They need to build momentum and their movements should be cumbersome. I think a warjack standing motionless is exactly what it would do...I just don't want them to look human at all.

There's just something about a breathing warjack that just ruins them. I guess it makes them feel too...cartoon like? They just aren't menacing anymore if they breathe.

BUT, This brings up a good point!

Warjacks should function like machines, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't act human. Warjacks imprints are a VERY COOL aspect of the game I would love to see portrayed in the video game. An imprint isn't breathing, dancing, or scratching an itch--it's an acquired PERSONALITY trait.

Referring to my Prime, a Warjack can become bloodthirsty, glory-hog, stalwart, baneful, overly protective, and so on. The legends character Jacks are also very characterful. Like, fire of salvation gets infuriated by the deaths of Menite warriors and charges forward to enact vengeance. That kinda stuff is cool! Just understand that there is a huge difference between bodily functions and personality.

[Skyydragonn]

actually quite a lot of bodily function are inherent to personality, a quick example are people who's nostrils flare out when peterbed, it has nothing to do with biology but a lot to dow ith a personality quick they possess, or picked up somewhere.

[Stormcaller]

Given that steamjacks are more or less mechanical golems, designed to emulate human beings in form and general function, save for the modifications made in order to allow them to be better at whatever task they're given (including the most general of tasks being the use of a great deal of strength), it's not out of the realm of possibility that these things could have a system of hydraulics and steam-powered pistons that emulate breathing.

What fiction we have is more or less quiet as to exactly how steamjacks behave when not in motion or not displaying the traits of imprinting. We know they exist and we know that they are machines; we know that they can be extremely hot to the touch due to their internal fires, and we know that the use of this potentially lethal heat is used along with their odd form as a method of punishment known as 'jacking' where an individual is chained to the 'jack and it is then ordered to walk back and forth, forcing the individual to suffer scalding burns and likely a good deal of damage. Particularly if they're not chained so their joints bend the same direction as the 'jack's.

I'm sure that Matt Wilson and the rest of the crew will make comments about anything that's too far off, and we will likely learn a good deal about the more subtle details of 'jacks and perhaps also warcasters with this game. Trust, watch, and be patient.

[InvaderZahn]

I think that NoQuarter Magazine #24 had an interesting article about 'jack acquiring quirks and personality traits, one of them being mimicking the movements of their controllers (stretching, scratching etc.) so its not really unheard of for a 'jack to mimic breathing.

Of course the other side of it is that a 'jack really needs an idle animation if it was stark still it would look unfinished in a game environment.

[Wordsmith]

Earlier, the OP mentioned staying true to the original material but I think they were off base a little. His example was Eldar in Dawn of War as opposed to the Tabletop game on which they were based. While they sure played differently in the computer game, Relic (the developers) maintained a level of feel, flavour and ambiance that maintained true to the story and source material they were based off. Personally, I would be less likely to buy the game if WMD mangled the feel of the world as opposed to balancing units across the board or changing faction playstyles a little.

So long as each faction has the playstyle of 'fun' I'll be good, but if sweeping changes to the PP Canon Storyline happened, if things were reflavoured for ease of use or if key story elements were left out, that would be a game breaker for me.

I did some work on a mockup warmachine videogame design brief for a project at uni once (completely different from the WMD idea and mostly irrelevant) but one relevant thing I learned from brainstorming through it was how important the Full Metal Fantasy ambiance of the Iron Kingdoms is to anything even tangentially involved with it. In a game really focusing on the Warjacks and Warcasters like the WMD game seems to be, I imagine nailing this would be even more important since you are right at the core of the Warmachine Mythos.

Maybe a good way to go about this would be to pick up the Iron Kingdoms Character Guide/World Guide if the WMD staff haven't already. While the warmachine books have everything you need to know about robots fighting, the IKCG/WG breathes life into a complete and well thought out world care of Doug Seacat, the PP staff writer. You can't read that book and not have ideas at the end of it.

Anyway, I've been waiting for someone to tackle a warmachine game ever since I found out WMD's predecessors Headfirst Games had picked up the liscence, then I'd been moping since the company went under. Then the tech demo announcement came out a little too late, and for a while everybody was like OMG WAMRACHING VIDOE GAM! and then oh no, its only a tech demo, our wild speculation was without foundation. Then, just as suddenly, WMD stepped up to the plate and we got the announcement and happy.